David Vogelpohl, Words Versus Pictures – What Converts Better

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00:00
welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast
00:03
where we go behind the scenes and
00:05
uncover the tactics and strategies top
00:07
entrepreneurs are using to make more
00:09
sales dominate their market and how you
00:12
can get those same results here is your
00:14
host dave woodward hey everybody welcome
00:18
back to funnel hacker radio i’m your
00:19
host dave liberated today you guys are
00:21
in for a special treat because you have
00:23
the opportunity of hearing from a great
00:24
friend of mine who actually is involved
00:27
in the whole web strategy concepts and i
00:30
think it’s something you guys going to
00:31
really love so welcome at this time
00:33
david boat a poll from WP engine he’s
00:36
the vice pres of web strategy of David
00:38
welcome aboard hey Dave thanks for
00:41
having me super excited to have yo this
00:43
is that there’s gonna be a lot of fun
00:45
for me I’ve got you know I it’s fun p as
00:47
we’ve kind of talking to an offline hear
00:48
that our actual podcast is hosted on a
00:51
WP engine platform and we use people
00:55
always are always asking that’s as far
00:57
as click bottles and things you know
00:58
what do you use WordPress and how is
00:59
we’re pressed high-end what do you guys
01:00
use so I thought you did easiest and
01:02
best ways for me to actually just bring
01:04
somebody on who understands WordPress
01:06
and how it ties and it works with us so
01:07
obviously for those people using quick
01:09
bundles we use quick models for
01:11
absolutely everything we can except when
01:14
it comes to a blogging platform and some
01:16
other things and I know I really want to
01:18
kind of spend just a few minutes kind of
01:19
dive in and talking first of all about
01:21
just kind of your experience as far as
01:23
web technology stuff and you might just
01:25
give people a little background as far
01:26
as where you been and what took you to
01:28
WP engine sure so I’ve been in working
01:33
for digital businesses since 1996
01:37
largely on the hosting side and worked
01:42
in house where ISPs and data center
01:45
companies I ran a word press agency for
01:48
five years where we focus on funnel
01:49
optimization and WordPress development
01:51
and then I moved on to WP engine which I
01:55
had worked with as a consultant since it
01:57
was basically founded but then I came on
02:00
board here at WP engine and really focus
02:03
on looking at ways that we as a company
02:06
our customers and our partners use
02:08
WordPress to solve problems in
02:10
innovative ways very cool
02:13
so with that said what are some of the
02:14
things when you’re looking at you know
02:16
some of the web strategies and you’re
02:18
working with teeth I mean you guys do it
02:19
and see a ton of different business it’s
02:21
kind of like what we do as well what are
02:23
some of the things you’re seeing these
02:24
days that are from a conversion
02:26
standpoint are important to people than
02:28
any be paying attention to yeah I think
02:32
we do a lot of a/b testing here
02:34
internally you know we look at our
02:36
funnels and how people are flowing
02:37
through there you know participate with
02:39
ppl customers look at what they’re doing
02:42
look at how speed impacts that and I
02:45
think for us as a company one of the
02:47
areas we focus on is that speed
02:49
component how quickly is that page
02:51
loading how is that customers experience
02:54
and what trade-offs are you making that
02:56
might influence that speed every second
02:59
that goes by is increasing the chances
03:02
that the visitors going to abandon the
03:03
page and you’re not going to convert
03:05
them so we spend a lot of the time as a
03:07
company looking at how speed influences
03:11
that along with SEO and then personally
03:14
I’m on this mantra of words convert and
03:18
just don’t meaning that you know within
03:20
the tests I’ve been running we find that
03:22
the copy is much more coarse compelling
03:25
than the images but I think personally
03:26
that’s my theme but as a company you
03:28
know we really really focused on how
03:30
speed influences those experiences let’s
03:33
talk a little more about the whole idea
03:35
as far as images and words that these
03:38
days almost everyone’s going the
03:39
opposite direction saying it’s all
03:40
images and Instagram and social media
03:42
thing so I’m curious to find out what
03:45
you found out recently with regards to
03:47
as far as words converting versus images
03:49
you know personal perspective is always
03:52
tricky he right it’s not necessarily a
03:54
rule it’s just someone’s view I think
03:56
Instagram and the use of images and
03:58
social media is super-important right
04:02
you have to kind of engage folks you
04:04
have to draw their attention to your
04:06
post and and have them have that level
04:09
of curiosity to kind of click in and go
04:11
further I think that’s super valuable
04:14
and certainly the design of a page is
04:17
also super valuable right is your call
04:20
to action in the right place whatever
04:22
that place maybe for you but personally
04:26
what I found
04:27
with testing over time is I rarely have
04:29
great success changing the layout of a
04:31
page in terms of significantly
04:33
influencing the conversion rates it
04:35
tends to be the copy right what I say to
04:38
value proposition I put out there and so
04:41
that’s been kind of like my I guess my
04:43
lesson of the last 12 months is to focus
04:45
a little bit more on that story and a
04:47
little bit less about worrying if I have
04:49
a green button or an orange button
04:52
that’s so funny image that we’ve got
04:54
back and forth of this conversation at
04:56
son recently here where the process
04:58
right now Lily redesigned our whole
05:00
front end sent to click funnels and
05:02
obviously there’s a lot of you know
05:06
funnel structure and things that we’re
05:07
spending time on but I know one of the
05:09
most important things it always comes
05:10
down to and I live have this
05:12
conversation is the other day and that
05:14
is I don’t care what if you have the
05:16
most compelling offer the offer is the
05:20
most important part I don’t care what
05:21
the images are over to where the funnel
05:22
structure is if you have a crazy amazing
05:24
offer that is totally irresistible then
05:27
people are going to take that offer and
05:28
I think is I live at his conversational
05:31
jump that’s just the other day with
05:32
regards to some email strategy things we
05:34
were talking about i was talking with
05:35
jim with regards to the runs funnel
05:39
script and its i totally agree that said
05:42
the coffee does too often people want to
05:46
kind of shy away and sitting a copy just
05:47
doesn’t matter it’s copied a second yes
05:51
it yeah it’s just you know you can get
05:53
as late as you want my pic you’re going
05:55
to have great pictures or and I know for
05:57
us it’s been fun we’ve experienced a ton
06:00
of video recently and we’re doing a lot
06:02
of testing trying to find out videos but
06:05
ironically what matters most I little we
06:08
would every 150 this rollout in about
06:11
two months not two weeks here and that
06:14
is we just live it refilled the front
06:17
video for our home our landing page and
06:19
it took Russell lilies two and a half
06:23
hours yesterday to get a 22 minute video
06:26
correct and it was literally that much
06:28
time as we’re going through changing
06:30
words and changing it was just crazy so
06:33
I know when people see this they all you
06:35
know it doesn’t matter they pleased
06:37
everyone’s listen to this understand
06:39
that we spend a ton of time on
06:40
crafting the message to make sure that
06:42
that message is correct and then the
06:44
delivery of it obviously we use you know
06:47
ton of video and a lot of stuff that we
06:49
do anyways but those words are crafted I
06:52
think again it goes back to a
06:54
conversation with Ryan infections the
06:56
other days with regards to surveys and
06:59
how literally serve the term survey is
07:03
actually a negative and kind of it is
07:05
the whole thing we’ve been looking at
07:07
whether they’re putting people to
07:08
different buckets and different groups
07:09
and you’ll hear us refer to more quizzes
07:12
and surveys and so take us take the quiz
07:14
versus take the survey nobody wants to
07:16
take a survey but I don’t want to take a
07:18
quiz so those little semantics and words
07:20
that’s I’m started aside so much into
07:22
this but it’s Lily David it’s been one
07:24
of those things we accept so much time
07:25
last two weeks here that’s what you had
07:28
a copy copy trumps everything it always
07:30
does so I appreciate your bitching that
07:32
and i won totally reinforcer your
07:35
feelings on that as well yeah it’s so
07:37
important I remember I was moving
07:39
offices and I was trying to sell some
07:41
furniture on craigslist just to get rid
07:43
of it and it put ads up and nobody
07:45
bought anything it was a couple weeks I
07:47
was getting a little frustrated I
07:48
couldn’t move it i was about to just
07:49
donate everything and i didn’t change
07:52
any of the pictures i had on the ads or
07:53
anything else all I did was at one word
07:55
to every ad and the title and I just put
07:58
a little descriptor there so the the
08:01
black leather couch turned into a man
08:03
cave black leather couch the table desk
08:05
turned into drafting table desks and
08:08
everything had a little kitschy word to
08:10
it and I moved everything in two days
08:11
and and I know that’s simple and silly
08:14
and you know when we work on funnels we
08:16
tend to work with a lot much larger
08:17
dollar amounts and volume and that’s
08:19
just a little craigslist example but
08:20
it’s just that one qualifying word that
08:23
one thing that helped connect the story
08:24
in their head that made that cell and it
08:26
was the same pictures in the same
08:27
description and same everything else
08:29
just that one qualifier and the title
08:31
just helped to connect the story in
08:33
their brain and that’s why I feel words
08:36
are more powerful than pictures I
08:37
appreciate that especially when it comes
08:39
to conversions because that’s what
08:40
people want more anything else is if it
08:43
is our craigslist you’re just trying to
08:44
sell some stuff or if you’ve got a
08:46
product online that you’re trying to
08:48
sell it words work out a huge huge
08:50
impact on it so I appreciate you may
08:51
submit to that well tell me a little
08:53
more far
08:54
as WP engine and what WP engine actually
08:57
does how it works how people can use it
09:00
things of that sort sure so WP engine is
09:03
a digital experience platform focusing
09:05
on WordPress and what that means is we
09:07
provide levels of support for our
09:09
customers and what they mainly do is
09:11
they house their wordpress experiences
09:13
on WP engine you might think of us like
09:15
a wordpress Oh as a matter of fact we
09:17
are in a sense of managed word process
09:18
but that’s just one layer of what we do
09:20
so we provide a house home for the
09:23
WordPress sites we provide additional
09:26
features to help them customized content
09:28
and then we provide tools a set of tools
09:32
both developer and DIY tools to help the
09:35
customers be more agile with the
09:37
experiences they deploy on our platform
09:39
so I get this question all the time you
09:41
say well if I may use WordPress in my
09:43
blog wordpress for my stuff you know
09:45
what what exactly do I can I just how
09:48
wide is hosting matter and all that kind
09:50
of stuff so if you don’t want to send
09:52
help people understand why the hosting
09:55
that you guys provided so important I
09:56
get it it’s what we use for our all of
09:59
our blogs are hosted on WP engine so
10:01
gets people a little more understand as
10:02
far as why that Philistine really
10:04
matters and what’s in them again what
10:08
what are the competitive bands of using
10:09
WP engine vs. Sun had people out there
10:11
yeah so I’m a pretty pragmatic person I
10:13
think why it matters is revenue that it
10:17
you know series click funnels are you
10:19
guys are definitely all in on this right
10:21
it’s the outcome has to have a business
10:23
impact right we have a great company in
10:26
a very culture we have great support all
10:28
that kind of good stuff but at the end
10:30
of the day if we’re not having a
10:32
material impact to our customers
10:34
business then we’re not really helping
10:36
anybody out and so so what what is that
10:38
material impact that we deliver for our
10:41
customers I think at the end of the day
10:43
it’s agility speed and security right
10:46
the ability to deploy things quickly so
10:49
for example we have the ability to copy
10:52
a site very quickly so say for example
10:54
you had a series of sites that were
10:57
similar but had different funnels and
10:59
we’re focused on different areas we have
11:01
a tool in the back end that allows you
11:03
to easily copied a site and then
11:05
repurpose it for a new niche so that
11:07
agility is really important your time to
11:09
market your ability to start monetizing
11:11
that more quickly which has a material
11:13
impact your bottom line I think that’s
11:16
important the other area where we
11:18
deliver value is with speed and of
11:21
course everybody wants a fast website
11:23
right who doesn’t want a fast website I
11:26
think a lot of people you know I read a
11:28
lot of forums and things like that when
11:30
people talk about their hosting like oh
11:31
I don’t have I don’t have the budget for
11:33
this or have the budget for that and
11:35
when you start looking at the dollar
11:36
amounts people are paying for their
11:38
hosting you know we’re on the quote
11:40
expensive in and for a single site only
11:43
one site its twenty nine dollars for one
11:45
site and then a cheaper host is going to
11:48
be fifteen dollars or ten dollars the
11:50
way I like to phrase this is how much do
11:53
you pay your top salesperson you pay
11:55
them fifteen dollars uh thirty dollars a
11:57
month so your website is right for most
11:59
businesses it is their number one sales
12:01
person by a long shot and so you know
12:04
investing and making sure that
12:05
experience is good for your visitors
12:07
that they’re not having to wait for the
12:08
content to load that they’re not
12:10
bouncing off your siding abandoning your
12:12
funnel just a little bit of investment
12:14
there can have big big returns even as
12:18
an example i give is like a lawyer’s
12:20
website know maybe there’s lawyers
12:22
thinking about their funnels maybe not I
12:24
don’t know but but even just not losing
12:26
one lead over the course of a year would
12:28
pay for you know that little bit of
12:31
extra service above and beyond just the
12:33
cheapest you could pay but that speed is
12:35
really valuable it also has a material
12:37
impact to SEO it’s part of Google’s
12:39
ranking algorithm particularly in mobile
12:42
and that’s going to get more and more
12:43
important so you know if generating
12:46
traffic from search results is important
12:48
if you’re worried about your abandoned
12:50
rate and visitors bouncing off your site
12:52
and then speed is important to you if
12:53
it’s a if it’s a side project
12:55
experimental catalog kind of thing and
12:57
maybe it’s not important but if you are
12:59
worried about keeping people on that
13:01
funnel you know our customers find that
13:04
valuable and then the final one is
13:05
security and you know I know a lot of
13:07
people don’t think about that very often
13:09
a matter of fact there’s this there’s
13:11
this kind of myth I constantly try to
13:14
squish as I’d know I don’t want to
13:16
update my plugins because it might break
13:17
my site plug-in updates oftentimes have
13:20
security
13:21
that’s important but one of the things
13:24
WP engine does is we help our customers
13:26
with that security so we scan for
13:28
vulnerabilities we ban plugins we know
13:31
to be problematic and there’s a bunch of
13:34
other infrastructure level security
13:35
things we do to help our customers stay
13:37
safe and it’s easy to unbreak a site in
13:41
my perspective but you can’t unhappy I
13:43
you can’t unley your customers
13:45
information you can’t unlink that
13:48
competitive information and so doing
13:50
that in advance it’s a it’s like taking
13:53
vitamins right yeah you need to take
13:56
those preventive measures because you
13:58
when it happens it’s already too late I
14:00
think you’ve already had some very a
14:02
problem that’s obvious one of those I
14:05
would credit cross with Todd I think
14:08
we’ve spent a ton time helping you know
14:11
folks on the imports of speed and sites
14:14
accept that and again security is always
14:16
a big issue so I appreciate you making
14:18
mention that somebody as far as the
14:20
opportunity people have in from a
14:25
Content standpoint what are some of the
14:26
main things you guys are seeing as far
14:28
as adding additional content content
14:31
impact and conversions anything at all
14:33
like that yeah we it’s kind of
14:37
interesting so WP engine has a pretty
14:39
aggressive content strategy surrounding
14:41
our business and then of course I’ve
14:44
been involved and have looked at lots
14:46
and lots of our customers actually just
14:47
personally read the homepage of two
14:49
thousand of our customers as part of a
14:52
hackathon project we did and so I got a
14:56
pretty good view of what our customers
14:58
were doing but but generally you know
15:00
you have this it’s kind of like two
15:03
approaches right one is thought
15:04
leadership we want to be seen as someone
15:06
respects in the space and then the
15:09
second is just straight-up legions right
15:11
just just some bait to get someone in
15:13
there collect that email address and get
15:16
them into your funnel I think the
15:18
challenge I see I think fundamentally
15:21
for the web moving forward and we’ve
15:23
kind of seen the service I think a
15:25
little bit what this whole fake news
15:26
discussion is you know how do you do
15:28
that in a meaningful way if you’re just
15:30
trying to get clicks and emails you know
15:34
you’re going to end up going to the
15:35
lowest common denominator you know top
15:38
10 the top ten that not really have in a
15:41
sense really actually being a thought
15:42
leader nor necessarily even adding a lot
15:45
of value to your business so I think the
15:46
challenge for content marketers is
15:48
coming up with that content that’s
15:50
actually going to deliver value to the
15:52
visitor and not just get you the highest
15:54
engagements torrents score on social so
15:58
i think from a strategy perspective
16:00
that’s why I see and I think the other
16:01
thing that you start I’m saying seeing
16:03
more and more but I still see a lot of
16:04
people really failing as this is
16:08
effectively integrating those calls to
16:10
action and funnel into that content
16:12
where do you put that call to action is
16:13
it in the article is it in the sidebar
16:15
how do you make it compelling and how do
16:17
you deliver value there you know and I
16:20
think from a web perspective I think
16:22
that’s one of the big challenges facing
16:25
folks as they use content to market to
16:26
business so with that said as you look
16:31
at being original from a Content
16:33
standpoint I all right across move all
16:36
the time who are trying to outsource a
16:37
lot of the content development what are
16:40
you seeing as far as original content in
16:43
the creation of it what what matters
16:46
most I think it’s important for the
16:51
brand who’s trying to generate the lead
16:53
to be the voice of much of its content I
16:56
think when you start thinking about
16:58
outsourced content contractors are fine
17:01
i think the challenge there’s getting
17:02
them up to speed on what it is you’re
17:04
trying to be a thought leader on if
17:07
you’re paying a writer or even someone
17:10
in your niche who’s going to write for
17:12
you they also need to learn your
17:13
perspective then what you know if you’re
17:16
just going to rely on them to turn out
17:17
content that has certain keywords and
17:19
talks about a certain topic they can do
17:21
that it’ll probably collect you emails
17:23
but again I think you just want to put
17:24
that lens on it us am I actually
17:26
producing something that’s valuable or
17:28
did I just happen to get an article or
17:30
an e-book on the topic I asked them to
17:32
learn that quality is important but at
17:35
the same time I mentioned earlier I’m
17:36
very pragmatic right like there’s a lot
17:38
of businesses or built around really
17:41
frankly crappy content right on and
17:44
there’s nothing necessarily
17:45
fundamentally wrong with that like
17:47
everybody doesn’t have to write for the
17:48
New York time
17:49
but I just think like you need to
17:51
understand what is that connection to
17:53
your brand because if you’re just
17:54
turning out cheap content that you have
17:56
some personal on the side writing for
17:57
you that you know checks the boxes of
17:59
the keywords that might not be the voice
18:02
you actually want got it now I
18:05
appreciate that I think that’s for us
18:07
one of the main things we really stress
18:08
quite a business we’ve talked a lot
18:10
about funnel hacking and things like
18:11
that but the idea is obviously not to
18:12
copy so basically the hacking idea is
18:15
you know take those ideas and concepts
18:18
and then create your content from that
18:20
so I appreciate you making mention that
18:22
well David is we kind of get close to
18:24
wrapping things up here tell me what are
18:26
some of the other what a things want to
18:27
make sure that our users are aware of or
18:29
how can they get an oldie yeah
18:32
absolutely if you want to get a hold of
18:33
me directly just hit me up on twitter at
18:36
david v mcp-1 check out WP engine of
18:40
course WP engine com but i guess the
18:43
closing closing thoughts here is you
18:45
know think of your website is your
18:47
number one salesperson give it the
18:49
attention you need give it the
18:50
investment it needs make sure you pay
18:53
attention to security I’ll reinforce
18:55
that update those plugins if you don’t
18:57
have WordPress on auto update you can
19:00
set it there just make sure you keep it
19:02
updated but but you know give some
19:04
attention to your site beyond just the
19:06
words beyond just the design make sure
19:08
that it’s fast and efficient it’s it’s
19:11
it’s the engines United WP engine I
19:13
guess but it’s the engine that powers
19:15
your business you see make sure it’s
19:16
fine tune but don’t don’t just let it
19:19
languish there on the side pay attention
19:21
to it and optimize it both on the back
19:23
end and on the front end fantastic so WP
19:27
engine com yeah absolutely if you guys
19:31
go there you can check out more about
19:32
our services we’re designed both for
19:36
developers and for DIY so if you’ve been
19:39
frustrated with things you couldn’t do
19:41
on another host a lot of that
19:42
functionalities actually built into our
19:43
platform to make it easier to copy sites
19:46
and scale your deployment of sites
19:48
there’s a lot of things you can do in
19:50
their backups and recovery they don’t
19:52
necessarily need to developer for so
19:54
that’s that’s really handy and
19:55
definitely worth checking out awesome
19:58
well David thank you again I appreciate
19:59
your time today and I look forward to
20:01
connecting with you again real soon
20:03
awesome thanks for having me Dave thanks
20:05
for listening to funnel hacker radio
20:06
podcast if you’d like to be notified
20:08
anytime we release a new episode to
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subscribe over at auto hacker radio com
20:12
in addition to that we’d love to send
20:15
you a free gift you can find that free
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gift at bottle hacker radio com forward
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slash retrial one last thing is we love
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giving away cars so if you like access
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to a free dream car all you have to do
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is go to funnel hacker radio com forward
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slash dream car and you’ll get all the
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details thanks again for listening

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