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00:00
welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast
00:02
where we go behind the scenes and
00:05
uncover the tactics and strategies top
00:07
entrepreneurs are using to make more
00:09
sales dominate their market and how you
00:12
can get those same results here is your
00:14
host Dave Woodward everybody welcome
00:18
back to funnel hacker radio I’m your
00:19
host Dave Woodward you guys are going to
00:21
love today’s topic and especially our
00:23
guest you have the opportunity of
00:24
meeting Jonathan David Lewis with
00:26
Jonathan welcome thanks for having me
00:28
excited to be here I’m excited so those
00:31
guys may not know Jonathan Jonathan is
00:32
the partner and strategy director at
00:34
McKee wall working company their primary
00:36
focus is really on helping brands that
00:38
are either stalled stuck or stale it’s
00:40
one of the many things we’re gonna be
00:41
talking about here also not only the
00:43
partner strategy directed there he’s
00:46
also as an author of a book called brand
00:47
versus while definitely recommend you
00:49
guys check out and he’s also a Forbes
00:52
contributor so Jonathan again welcome
00:54
glad to have you on the call anything
00:55
else you want to say juice yourself so
00:57
our audience I think you summed it up
00:59
well thanks so much oh good good I want
01:02
to just kind of dive right into this
01:03
this is a topic that people always ask
01:06
me without that is how important is
01:08
branding and it’s really matter and I
01:10
know that duh obvious it’s kind of your
01:12
your niche what you guys have been doing
01:14
and I think the idea here which I really
01:17
love it’s a kind of if I take a look at
01:18
this here is the ideas for is business
01:21
strategy and how branding really applies
01:22
and most importantly I’d like to go
01:25
might just kind of tell us a little bit
01:26
about why you ended up right writing
01:28
this book called brand vs. wild and what
01:30
wild actually is definitely well I think
01:34
when you think about branding you know
01:36
how important is it it’s sort of
01:37
overused and and abused a lot in our
01:41
culture but I would simply ask you know
01:44
how important is your reputation because
01:46
at one level really a brand is simply
01:49
what other people you know think of you
01:52
whether they respect you it’s kind of
01:54
the amalgamation of everything you do
01:55
and everything you are and everything
01:56
you’ve done so if your reputation
01:58
matters then certainly your brand
02:00
matters and when you think about brand
02:03
versus wild really at the core of this
02:05
effort and the research and the book
02:07
that everything everything went into it
02:09
it’s really in reaction
02:11
- what I really feel is the zeitgeist of
02:14
our time
02:15
which is this overwhelming feeling where
02:19
we’re all facing this this increased
02:22
changes increased pace of change this
02:25
uncertainty and ambiguity out in the
02:27
culture so you look at any field you
02:29
look at politics you look business
02:31
technology everything is really you know
02:34
the pace of change is increasing but
02:35
it’s also in turmoil and there’s a lot
02:37
of chaos and as a business professional
02:39
as a leader trying to navigate this
02:41
trying to understand what to do and stay
02:43
on the edge and all those things it’s
02:45
pretty overwhelming and in some cases
02:47
it’s how it’s pretty isolating so that’s
02:50
the wild you know that just from a kind
02:52
of an emotional standpoint and kind of
02:55
the core of the book is about how do we
02:57
as whether we’re a small business owner
03:00
or an entrepreneur or a marketing
03:03
professional how do we build brand how
03:06
do we build businesses in the midst of
03:07
this chaos that is marking the beginning
03:11
of our century and there is a way but it
03:14
requires a fundamental shift in how we
03:16
think about success and what how we the
03:19
tactics we employ to succeed now I
03:22
appreciate the fact that you mentioned
03:23
reputation because I think a lot of
03:25
people especially when we start looking
03:26
at funnels and and funnel marketing
03:29
sales marketing and things that dive
03:31
it’s really easy to think gosh you know
03:32
my my company’s brand really I don’t
03:34
really have a brand per se and I don’t
03:36
really have anything that that’s I’m not
03:38
a coca-cola McDonald’s or any major
03:41
quote-unquote brands that people think
03:42
of I think the main thing especially
03:44
from a marketing standpoint is be
03:45
important to your reputation and how do
03:47
you actually control your reputation not
03:48
only as the business owner but also your
03:51
reputation of your product the
03:52
reputation of the company reputation of
03:54
all that you’re really doing and what
03:56
you represent so I really appreciate
03:58
Jonathan kind of the clarification there
04:01
um if you don’t mind tell me a little
04:04
more here as far as this concept of
04:07
wilderness I know I I was going through
04:10
your book and stuff and you talked about
04:11
these companies that you know get lost
04:13
in the wilderness
04:13
what wilderness are you talking about
04:15
and how does that really apply to our
04:17
users well as I mentioned from a from an
04:20
emotional standpoint we define the wild
04:22
as just this the zeitgeist of our time
04:24
which is
04:25
overwhelming nature of things but
04:26
technically we define the wild as three
04:29
factors and it came from the last decade
04:32
of research we’ve conducted these two
04:34
national studies that identified seven
04:37
factors that affect growth and
04:38
businesses three of those seven are
04:40
external they’re the economy aggressive
04:43
competition and industry disruption
04:45
these combined are technically at what
04:49
we define as the wild because these are
04:51
the forces that dislodge us or disorient
04:53
us as professionals and business owners
04:55
they cause us to to really wander in the
04:59
wilderness if you know famously borders
05:02
who was highly successful for quite a
05:05
good stretch you know they weren’t
05:07
prepared for the Great Recession they
05:10
had a lot of kind of institutional
05:12
static strength with high inventory and
05:15
you know a bad cash position and they
05:18
had all these crazy leases that they
05:20
signed so when they faced their wild
05:22
when they recession hit you know they
05:24
weren’t in a liquid position they
05:26
weren’t resilient they weren’t prepared
05:27
to really manage that change in that
05:30
chaos so the wild is you know from a
05:34
technical standpoint are these forces
05:35
that really dislodge us what really you
05:38
know made the light go on and made us
05:40
excited was what we discovered the other
05:43
four factors four of the seven factors
05:46
that are statistically significant and
05:48
affecting our growth are internal
05:50
they’re inside our companies are inside
05:53
of us they’re in our teams they’re
05:54
within our control and they’re they are
05:56
the most likely to be ignored or even
05:58
you know misunderstood and there’s
06:01
things like a lack of focus a loss of
06:04
nerve fear is a big element to this
06:07
whole wild inconsistency you know if
06:10
you’re just trying things you’re kind of
06:11
all over the place looking for easy
06:13
answers and then ultimately dysfunction
06:16
a lack of alignment what we call
06:17
savagery inside companies is what holds
06:21
us back from having from really managing
06:24
change and adapting and innovating and
06:26
also thriving in the midst of this
06:28
uncertainty so let’s talk about that
06:31
savagery think that’s a that’s kind of
06:33
an interesting topic that most people
06:35
don’t address when they’re talking to
06:36
business owners what do you mean by
06:38
savagery
06:39
so you know if I had to rank for the the
06:43
four factors in the most destructive
06:45
factor that can affect our growth as
06:47
business leaders and marketing
06:48
professionals it’s this lack of
06:50
alignment that we’ve identified through
06:52
the research that you know it doesn’t
06:54
matter what tactics you use or you know
06:56
what your website looks like or what
06:58
your logo looks like really anything you
07:01
do if your team is not on the same page
07:04
if in fact sometimes are working towards
07:07
different ends so in companies we see
07:09
this all the time that’s where you get
07:11
backbiting and gossip and turf wars you
07:14
know all that junk that we find in
07:15
companies but in the wilderness and
07:17
survival scenarios this this is really
07:20
the marked difference between groups of
07:22
people who face the harshest hellish you
07:26
know environments on earth and survive
07:29
versus other groups who face similar
07:31
circumstances and don’t survive it’s not
07:34
that one group or another has better
07:35
resources or better knowledge know the
07:38
difference the fundamental difference is
07:40
the internal health the internal
07:42
dynamics of those teams and whether
07:44
they’re able to have you know a real
07:47
clear alignment about what they’re doing
07:49
who they’re targeting at you know what
07:50
they’re trying where they’re focusing
07:52
that is what marks the difference
07:54
between the survivors and those that
07:56
decline into irrelevance
07:58
that’s pretty yes I actually love that
08:00
idea yeah if you don’t mind tell me how
08:02
does it how do you get that more
08:04
cohesive group I mean typically have a
08:07
lot of the people who listen to funnel
08:09
hacker radio have smaller companies it’s
08:13
not uncommon where they’re working with
08:14
a virtual team we have opposite the same
08:17
time we have those companies who are
08:18
much larger but for the most part most
08:20
of our listeners typically have less
08:23
than 20 25 employees tell me what how
08:28
when you’re working with a virtual team
08:30
or a smaller company how do you make
08:32
sure that you have that kind of
08:33
alignment well first I’d say you know if
08:37
you have a smaller team you actually
08:39
have a great advantage because really
08:42
what we’re seeing is that these larger
08:43
companies you know whether it comes to
08:46
alignment or whether it comes to fear
08:48
and focus they are at a great
08:50
disadvantage because their size works
08:52
against them there’s
08:53
the sluggish they often become arrogant
08:55
they believe what made them successful
08:57
or make them successful in the future
08:59
these are all things that just you know
09:01
spell death in this wilderness that we
09:04
find ourselves in in business so the
09:06
smaller the team actually represents
09:09
opportunity to make sure you’re on the
09:11
same page what I would say is you know
09:13
whether you’re a one-person team or
09:15
whether you have 25 people these all of
09:18
these forces are at play in you right
09:20
now today and by by understanding that
09:23
there’s a very predictable response to
09:26
disruption whether you know one of the
09:28
core things we found in our research is
09:30
that there’s psychologically very little
09:32
difference between a group of people
09:34
that crash land on top of a mountain and
09:36
a group of people you know working on
09:38
some sort of business challenge both
09:40
groups psychologically respond to
09:42
disruption in very similar ways and
09:44
can’t get out of it in similar ways so
09:46
the first step is to know thyself I mean
09:49
understand how you’re going to react to
09:52
this disruption understand how very
09:54
predictably your team is going to go
09:56
into reaction so what we discovered is
09:57
of those four factors they hit
09:59
sequentially when you’re facing some
10:01
sort of hardship it could be as big as
10:03
you know you’re being disrupted by uber
10:05
or it could be as small as maybe sales
10:07
are starting to stall and maybe you’re
10:09
starting to drift you don’t really know
10:10
what to do well what happens is as soon
10:11
as something like that hit fear it’s
10:14
your first response you lose you’re
10:17
nervous and according to our research
10:18
you’re less likely to invest you’re
10:21
you’re more likely to lose your focus on
10:24
your target you’re going to try to be
10:25
all things to all people all of these
10:27
very predictable things start hitting
10:29
you as a business leader and you
10:32
predictably respond with bad decisions
10:34
and what’s what’s interesting here is
10:36
physiologically you are hardwired to
10:38
react a certain way and often you react
10:41
poorly you make bad decisions because of
10:43
that one of the kind of the cool
10:45
interesting areas of survival psychology
10:48
that we really pulled from that was
10:50
highly correlated with our research was
10:52
really led by this professor named dr.
10:54
John leach and what he has put together
10:57
based on his researches he essentially
10:59
says when anybody in the world faces
11:02
some sort of disruption or hardship or
11:03
survival scenario they fall into three
11:05
categories
11:06
10% of us are prepared you know we hit
11:10
that challenge and we react rationally
11:13
logically we can get through we can lead
11:15
other peoples through 80% of us are
11:18
paralyzed by a disruption of some kind
11:22
we don’t know what to do so we don’t do
11:24
anything we freeze our hearts pounding
11:26
our illogical brain takes over from our
11:28
logical brain then another 10% of us
11:31
actually panic we make things worse for
11:33
ourselves and others so first know
11:36
thyself
11:36
where are you falling in at ten eighty
11:39
ten theory as dr. John leach says now if
11:42
you’re not in that top 10% you are not
11:45
prepared to be resilient and do to
11:48
navigate whatever uncertainty comes if
11:51
you are paralyzed and you’re falling
11:52
into that sort of that’s that first
11:54
reaction to the wild which is fear once
11:58
you’re afraid you start to drift you
12:00
lose your focus once you lose your drift
12:01
I’m sorry once you lose your focus you
12:03
immediately start acting very
12:05
inconsistently you look for Silver
12:06
Bullet solutions and then ultimately
12:08
when all of these things culminate you
12:10
become savage start treating each other
12:12
poorly that’s when you know this is an
12:15
existential problem you’re probably
12:17
close to decision point are you going to
12:19
fail you’re going to become irrelevant
12:20
we’re going to turn things around very
12:23
cool so tell me what are some of the
12:24
brand hacks that we’re all again we’re a
12:27
funnel hacking community so hacks are a
12:29
big deal to us so tell me some what are
12:31
some of the brand hacks that you can use
12:33
basically face this whole wild concept
12:35
first thing I do you know if you’re
12:37
whether you are facing disruption or you
12:39
want to be the disruptor is use
12:41
something we call the wall test so go
12:44
look at whatever industry you want to
12:46
disrupt or what your own industry and
12:48
just do a big you know take two hours
12:51
and just go over the entire internet
12:54
find everything you can find on your
12:57
competitors on current status quo in the
12:59
industry vendors etc look at their
13:02
marketing download their websites print
13:05
it all out and put it on one wall do
13:08
this for yourself as well put your
13:09
marketing materials put your website
13:12
anything you have on the same wall and
13:14
then step back and look at the hall and
13:17
quickly very quickly you’ll discover
13:19
you know where the conventions you’ll
13:22
see the same colors you’ll see the
13:23
similar language you’ll it’s usually
13:25
pretty depressing because you’ll quickly
13:27
find out everybody sounds the same but
13:29
while you’re doing this you’ll find a
13:31
zig right and as you see the zig you
13:34
need to start writing down okay
13:36
where’s the zag here because every you
13:38
know industries tend to follow each
13:39
other you know there’s usually one later
13:41
than everybody mimics them and so
13:43
there’s a lot of conventions in a lot of
13:45
industries so find the zig do write down
13:48
your zag and those zags are the
13:49
opportunities to disrupt so you’ll be
13:52
able to evaluate yourself evaluate your
13:54
industry and it’s very cheap and it’s
13:56
very easy do the wall test I love that I
14:01
think that’s fantastic
14:02
so tell me as kind of get close to
14:05
wrapping things after what are some of
14:06
the main things you think a small
14:09
business entrepreneur needs to be really
14:10
focused on to make sure they’re aware of
14:12
those types of things that you keep some
14:14
out a lot most importantly they can Zig
14:16
one that needs AG as well well first and
14:18
foremost know that you’re you are as a
14:21
small business owner you’re actually in
14:24
a position of strength in today’s
14:25
economy may not feel like it and that’s
14:27
one of those emotional things you know
14:29
everything’s so overwhelming you know
14:31
feels like you’re we’re isolated etc but
14:34
you’re in a position of strength so know
14:35
that and be encouraged by that and and
14:38
know that you know all of these old
14:41
concepts of success size scale longevity
14:44
intellectual property these are things
14:46
that we’ve been taught in our MBA
14:48
programs that we’ve learned in our
14:49
careers make us successful today that
14:52
just are not working anymore they’re
14:54
either irrelevant or becoming irrelevant
14:57
which again means that maybe growth
14:59
isn’t necessarily the goal may be profit
15:03
is the goal may be scalability is the
15:05
goal so you can fluctuate as your
15:07
industry fluctuates so these old
15:09
concepts of success aren’t working like
15:11
they used to there are new concepts of
15:13
success principles required to succeed
15:16
things like flexibility now trumping
15:19
efficiency what does that mean how can
15:22
you know coming from a business leader
15:23
what does it means to prioritize
15:25
anything over efficiency that that’s
15:27
almost you know heretic 'el connection
15:30
now beating craft in many creative
15:33
industry
15:33
that’s heretical you know so understand
15:36
there’s actually new principles required
15:37
to succeed in this very uncertain
15:40
high-risk economy that that allow us to
15:43
be resilient to grow resilient brands to
15:46
actually flourish in our size whether
15:48
we’re small
15:49
that means we’re nimble that means we
15:51
can innovate and we can you know we have
15:53
higher risk tolerances so you’re in a
15:56
position of strength focus on resiliency
15:58
I love it so tell me what the question
16:00
once you get a copy of brand versus wild
16:02
what do you recommend where they go well
16:04
you can find it anywhere books are sold
16:05
certainly you know go to Amazon pick up
16:07
a copy drop me a review if you want to
16:10
learn more you can go to Jonathan David
16:11
Lewis comm and you can learn more about
16:14
me and my company McKee wall work and
16:16
you know there’s a lot of info about the
16:17
book there as well
16:18
fantastic well John anything else you
16:20
are share with our audience before we
16:21
let go now I think we’ve covered quite a
16:25
bit of it I would just say focus on that
16:26
resiliency I love it
16:28
well again Jonathan I really appreciate
16:30
your time I appreciate your sharing with
16:33
us the importance of guitars being that
16:34
resilient especially as an entrepreneur
16:36
and small business owner resiliency is
16:37
obviously one of the most important
16:39
things that you can focus on so I
16:41
appreciate your time and look forward to
16:42
talking soon
16:43
thanks so much thanks for listening to
16:46
funnel hacker radio podcast if you’d
16:47
like to be notified anytime we release a
16:49
new episode just subscribe over at Bono
16:51
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16:55
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17:00
slash free trial one last thing is we
17:03
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17:06
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17:08
to do is go to frontal hacker radio com
17:10
forward slash dream car and you’ll get
17:13
all the details thanks again for
17:14
listening
Expert Secrets: Find Your Message, Build A Tribe, And Change The World…
“Expert Secrets Is The Map That Will Allow You To Turn Your Specialized Knowledge, Talents and Abilities Into A Business That Will Work For You! This Is One Of The Shortcuts of The New Rich” - Robert Kiyosaki