Jonathan David Lewis, Brand Vs. Wild

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00:00
welcome to funnel hacker radio podcast
00:02
where we go behind the scenes and
00:05
uncover the tactics and strategies top
00:07
entrepreneurs are using to make more
00:09
sales dominate their market and how you
00:12
can get those same results here is your
00:14
host Dave Woodward everybody welcome
00:18
back to funnel hacker radio I’m your
00:19
host Dave Woodward you guys are going to
00:21
love today’s topic and especially our
00:23
guest you have the opportunity of
00:24
meeting Jonathan David Lewis with
00:26
Jonathan welcome thanks for having me
00:28
excited to be here I’m excited so those
00:31
guys may not know Jonathan Jonathan is
00:32
the partner and strategy director at
00:34
McKee wall working company their primary
00:36
focus is really on helping brands that
00:38
are either stalled stuck or stale it’s
00:40
one of the many things we’re gonna be
00:41
talking about here also not only the
00:43
partner strategy directed there he’s
00:46
also as an author of a book called brand
00:47
versus while definitely recommend you
00:49
guys check out and he’s also a Forbes
00:52
contributor so Jonathan again welcome
00:54
glad to have you on the call anything
00:55
else you want to say juice yourself so
00:57
our audience I think you summed it up
00:59
well thanks so much oh good good I want
01:02
to just kind of dive right into this
01:03
this is a topic that people always ask
01:06
me without that is how important is
01:08
branding and it’s really matter and I
01:10
know that duh obvious it’s kind of your
01:12
your niche what you guys have been doing
01:14
and I think the idea here which I really
01:17
love it’s a kind of if I take a look at
01:18
this here is the ideas for is business
01:21
strategy and how branding really applies
01:22
and most importantly I’d like to go
01:25
might just kind of tell us a little bit
01:26
about why you ended up right writing
01:28
this book called brand vs. wild and what
01:30
wild actually is definitely well I think
01:34
when you think about branding you know
01:36
how important is it it’s sort of
01:37
overused and and abused a lot in our
01:41
culture but I would simply ask you know
01:44
how important is your reputation because
01:46
at one level really a brand is simply
01:49
what other people you know think of you
01:52
whether they respect you it’s kind of
01:54
the amalgamation of everything you do
01:55
and everything you are and everything
01:56
you’ve done so if your reputation
01:58
matters then certainly your brand
02:00
matters and when you think about brand
02:03
versus wild really at the core of this
02:05
effort and the research and the book
02:07
that everything everything went into it
02:09
it’s really in reaction
02:11

  • what I really feel is the zeitgeist of
    02:14
    our time
    02:15
    which is this overwhelming feeling where
    02:19
    we’re all facing this this increased
    02:22
    changes increased pace of change this
    02:25
    uncertainty and ambiguity out in the
    02:27
    culture so you look at any field you
    02:29
    look at politics you look business
    02:31
    technology everything is really you know
    02:34
    the pace of change is increasing but
    02:35
    it’s also in turmoil and there’s a lot
    02:37
    of chaos and as a business professional
    02:39
    as a leader trying to navigate this
    02:41
    trying to understand what to do and stay
    02:43
    on the edge and all those things it’s
    02:45
    pretty overwhelming and in some cases
    02:47
    it’s how it’s pretty isolating so that’s
    02:50
    the wild you know that just from a kind
    02:52
    of an emotional standpoint and kind of
    02:55
    the core of the book is about how do we
    02:57
    as whether we’re a small business owner
    03:00
    or an entrepreneur or a marketing
    03:03
    professional how do we build brand how
    03:06
    do we build businesses in the midst of
    03:07
    this chaos that is marking the beginning
    03:11
    of our century and there is a way but it
    03:14
    requires a fundamental shift in how we
    03:16
    think about success and what how we the
    03:19
    tactics we employ to succeed now I
    03:22
    appreciate the fact that you mentioned
    03:23
    reputation because I think a lot of
    03:25
    people especially when we start looking
    03:26
    at funnels and and funnel marketing
    03:29
    sales marketing and things that dive
    03:31
    it’s really easy to think gosh you know
    03:32
    my my company’s brand really I don’t
    03:34
    really have a brand per se and I don’t
    03:36
    really have anything that that’s I’m not
    03:38
    a coca-cola McDonald’s or any major
    03:41
    quote-unquote brands that people think
    03:42
    of I think the main thing especially
    03:44
    from a marketing standpoint is be
    03:45
    important to your reputation and how do
    03:47
    you actually control your reputation not
    03:48
    only as the business owner but also your
    03:51
    reputation of your product the
    03:52
    reputation of the company reputation of
    03:54
    all that you’re really doing and what
    03:56
    you represent so I really appreciate
    03:58
    Jonathan kind of the clarification there
    04:01
    um if you don’t mind tell me a little
    04:04
    more here as far as this concept of
    04:07
    wilderness I know I I was going through
    04:10
    your book and stuff and you talked about
    04:11
    these companies that you know get lost
    04:13
    in the wilderness
    04:13
    what wilderness are you talking about
    04:15
    and how does that really apply to our
    04:17
    users well as I mentioned from a from an
    04:20
    emotional standpoint we define the wild
    04:22
    as just this the zeitgeist of our time
    04:24
    which is
    04:25
    overwhelming nature of things but
    04:26
    technically we define the wild as three
    04:29
    factors and it came from the last decade
    04:32
    of research we’ve conducted these two
    04:34
    national studies that identified seven
    04:37
    factors that affect growth and
    04:38
    businesses three of those seven are
    04:40
    external they’re the economy aggressive
    04:43
    competition and industry disruption
    04:45
    these combined are technically at what
    04:49
    we define as the wild because these are
    04:51
    the forces that dislodge us or disorient
    04:53
    us as professionals and business owners
    04:55
    they cause us to to really wander in the
    04:59
    wilderness if you know famously borders
    05:02
    who was highly successful for quite a
    05:05
    good stretch you know they weren’t
    05:07
    prepared for the Great Recession they
    05:10
    had a lot of kind of institutional
    05:12
    static strength with high inventory and
    05:15
    you know a bad cash position and they
    05:18
    had all these crazy leases that they
    05:20
    signed so when they faced their wild
    05:22
    when they recession hit you know they
    05:24
    weren’t in a liquid position they
    05:26
    weren’t resilient they weren’t prepared
    05:27
    to really manage that change in that
    05:30
    chaos so the wild is you know from a
    05:34
    technical standpoint are these forces
    05:35
    that really dislodge us what really you
    05:38
    know made the light go on and made us
    05:40
    excited was what we discovered the other
    05:43
    four factors four of the seven factors
    05:46
    that are statistically significant and
    05:48
    affecting our growth are internal
    05:50
    they’re inside our companies are inside
    05:53
    of us they’re in our teams they’re
    05:54
    within our control and they’re they are
    05:56
    the most likely to be ignored or even
    05:58
    you know misunderstood and there’s
    06:01
    things like a lack of focus a loss of
    06:04
    nerve fear is a big element to this
    06:07
    whole wild inconsistency you know if
    06:10
    you’re just trying things you’re kind of
    06:11
    all over the place looking for easy
    06:13
    answers and then ultimately dysfunction
    06:16
    a lack of alignment what we call
    06:17
    savagery inside companies is what holds
    06:21
    us back from having from really managing
    06:24
    change and adapting and innovating and
    06:26
    also thriving in the midst of this
    06:28
    uncertainty so let’s talk about that
    06:31
    savagery think that’s a that’s kind of
    06:33
    an interesting topic that most people
    06:35
    don’t address when they’re talking to
    06:36
    business owners what do you mean by
    06:38
    savagery
    06:39
    so you know if I had to rank for the the
    06:43
    four factors in the most destructive
    06:45
    factor that can affect our growth as
    06:47
    business leaders and marketing
    06:48
    professionals it’s this lack of
    06:50
    alignment that we’ve identified through
    06:52
    the research that you know it doesn’t
    06:54
    matter what tactics you use or you know
    06:56
    what your website looks like or what
    06:58
    your logo looks like really anything you
    07:01
    do if your team is not on the same page
    07:04
    if in fact sometimes are working towards
    07:07
    different ends so in companies we see
    07:09
    this all the time that’s where you get
    07:11
    backbiting and gossip and turf wars you
    07:14
    know all that junk that we find in
    07:15
    companies but in the wilderness and
    07:17
    survival scenarios this this is really
    07:20
    the marked difference between groups of
    07:22
    people who face the harshest hellish you
    07:26
    know environments on earth and survive
    07:29
    versus other groups who face similar
    07:31
    circumstances and don’t survive it’s not
    07:34
    that one group or another has better
    07:35
    resources or better knowledge know the
    07:38
    difference the fundamental difference is
    07:40
    the internal health the internal
    07:42
    dynamics of those teams and whether
    07:44
    they’re able to have you know a real
    07:47
    clear alignment about what they’re doing
    07:49
    who they’re targeting at you know what
    07:50
    they’re trying where they’re focusing
    07:52
    that is what marks the difference
    07:54
    between the survivors and those that
    07:56
    decline into irrelevance
    07:58
    that’s pretty yes I actually love that
    08:00
    idea yeah if you don’t mind tell me how
    08:02
    does it how do you get that more
    08:04
    cohesive group I mean typically have a
    08:07
    lot of the people who listen to funnel
    08:09
    hacker radio have smaller companies it’s
    08:13
    not uncommon where they’re working with
    08:14
    a virtual team we have opposite the same
    08:17
    time we have those companies who are
    08:18
    much larger but for the most part most
    08:20
    of our listeners typically have less
    08:23
    than 20 25 employees tell me what how
    08:28
    when you’re working with a virtual team
    08:30
    or a smaller company how do you make
    08:32
    sure that you have that kind of
    08:33
    alignment well first I’d say you know if
    08:37
    you have a smaller team you actually
    08:39
    have a great advantage because really
    08:42
    what we’re seeing is that these larger
    08:43
    companies you know whether it comes to
    08:46
    alignment or whether it comes to fear
    08:48
    and focus they are at a great
    08:50
    disadvantage because their size works
    08:52
    against them there’s
    08:53
    the sluggish they often become arrogant
    08:55
    they believe what made them successful
    08:57
    or make them successful in the future
    08:59
    these are all things that just you know
    09:01
    spell death in this wilderness that we
    09:04
    find ourselves in in business so the
    09:06
    smaller the team actually represents
    09:09
    opportunity to make sure you’re on the
    09:11
    same page what I would say is you know
    09:13
    whether you’re a one-person team or
    09:15
    whether you have 25 people these all of
    09:18
    these forces are at play in you right
    09:20
    now today and by by understanding that
    09:23
    there’s a very predictable response to
    09:26
    disruption whether you know one of the
    09:28
    core things we found in our research is
    09:30
    that there’s psychologically very little
    09:32
    difference between a group of people
    09:34
    that crash land on top of a mountain and
    09:36
    a group of people you know working on
    09:38
    some sort of business challenge both
    09:40
    groups psychologically respond to
    09:42
    disruption in very similar ways and
    09:44
    can’t get out of it in similar ways so
    09:46
    the first step is to know thyself I mean
    09:49
    understand how you’re going to react to
    09:52
    this disruption understand how very
    09:54
    predictably your team is going to go
    09:56
    into reaction so what we discovered is
    09:57
    of those four factors they hit
    09:59
    sequentially when you’re facing some
    10:01
    sort of hardship it could be as big as
    10:03
    you know you’re being disrupted by uber
    10:05
    or it could be as small as maybe sales
    10:07
    are starting to stall and maybe you’re
    10:09
    starting to drift you don’t really know
    10:10
    what to do well what happens is as soon
    10:11
    as something like that hit fear it’s
    10:14
    your first response you lose you’re
    10:17
    nervous and according to our research
    10:18
    you’re less likely to invest you’re
    10:21
    you’re more likely to lose your focus on
    10:24
    your target you’re going to try to be
    10:25
    all things to all people all of these
    10:27
    very predictable things start hitting
    10:29
    you as a business leader and you
    10:32
    predictably respond with bad decisions
    10:34
    and what’s what’s interesting here is
    10:36
    physiologically you are hardwired to
    10:38
    react a certain way and often you react
    10:41
    poorly you make bad decisions because of
    10:43
    that one of the kind of the cool
    10:45
    interesting areas of survival psychology
    10:48
    that we really pulled from that was
    10:50
    highly correlated with our research was
    10:52
    really led by this professor named dr.
    10:54
    John leach and what he has put together
    10:57
    based on his researches he essentially
    10:59
    says when anybody in the world faces
    11:02
    some sort of disruption or hardship or
    11:03
    survival scenario they fall into three
    11:05
    categories
    11:06
    10% of us are prepared you know we hit
    11:10
    that challenge and we react rationally
    11:13
    logically we can get through we can lead
    11:15
    other peoples through 80% of us are
    11:18
    paralyzed by a disruption of some kind
    11:22
    we don’t know what to do so we don’t do
    11:24
    anything we freeze our hearts pounding
    11:26
    our illogical brain takes over from our
    11:28
    logical brain then another 10% of us
    11:31
    actually panic we make things worse for
    11:33
    ourselves and others so first know
    11:36
    thyself
    11:36
    where are you falling in at ten eighty
    11:39
    ten theory as dr. John leach says now if
    11:42
    you’re not in that top 10% you are not
    11:45
    prepared to be resilient and do to
    11:48
    navigate whatever uncertainty comes if
    11:51
    you are paralyzed and you’re falling
    11:52
    into that sort of that’s that first
    11:54
    reaction to the wild which is fear once
    11:58
    you’re afraid you start to drift you
    12:00
    lose your focus once you lose your drift
    12:01
    I’m sorry once you lose your focus you
    12:03
    immediately start acting very
    12:05
    inconsistently you look for Silver
    12:06
    Bullet solutions and then ultimately
    12:08
    when all of these things culminate you
    12:10
    become savage start treating each other
    12:12
    poorly that’s when you know this is an
    12:15
    existential problem you’re probably
    12:17
    close to decision point are you going to
    12:19
    fail you’re going to become irrelevant
    12:20
    we’re going to turn things around very
    12:23
    cool so tell me what are some of the
    12:24
    brand hacks that we’re all again we’re a
    12:27
    funnel hacking community so hacks are a
    12:29
    big deal to us so tell me some what are
    12:31
    some of the brand hacks that you can use
    12:33
    basically face this whole wild concept
    12:35
    first thing I do you know if you’re
    12:37
    whether you are facing disruption or you
    12:39
    want to be the disruptor is use
    12:41
    something we call the wall test so go
    12:44
    look at whatever industry you want to
    12:46
    disrupt or what your own industry and
    12:48
    just do a big you know take two hours
    12:51
    and just go over the entire internet
    12:54
    find everything you can find on your
    12:57
    competitors on current status quo in the
    12:59
    industry vendors etc look at their
    13:02
    marketing download their websites print
    13:05
    it all out and put it on one wall do
    13:08
    this for yourself as well put your
    13:09
    marketing materials put your website
    13:12
    anything you have on the same wall and
    13:14
    then step back and look at the hall and
    13:17
    quickly very quickly you’ll discover
    13:19
    you know where the conventions you’ll
    13:22
    see the same colors you’ll see the
    13:23
    similar language you’ll it’s usually
    13:25
    pretty depressing because you’ll quickly
    13:27
    find out everybody sounds the same but
    13:29
    while you’re doing this you’ll find a
    13:31
    zig right and as you see the zig you
    13:34
    need to start writing down okay
    13:36
    where’s the zag here because every you
    13:38
    know industries tend to follow each
    13:39
    other you know there’s usually one later
    13:41
    than everybody mimics them and so
    13:43
    there’s a lot of conventions in a lot of
    13:45
    industries so find the zig do write down
    13:48
    your zag and those zags are the
    13:49
    opportunities to disrupt so you’ll be
    13:52
    able to evaluate yourself evaluate your
    13:54
    industry and it’s very cheap and it’s
    13:56
    very easy do the wall test I love that I
    14:01
    think that’s fantastic
    14:02
    so tell me as kind of get close to
    14:05
    wrapping things after what are some of
    14:06
    the main things you think a small
    14:09
    business entrepreneur needs to be really
    14:10
    focused on to make sure they’re aware of
    14:12
    those types of things that you keep some
    14:14
    out a lot most importantly they can Zig
    14:16
    one that needs AG as well well first and
    14:18
    foremost know that you’re you are as a
    14:21
    small business owner you’re actually in
    14:24
    a position of strength in today’s
    14:25
    economy may not feel like it and that’s
    14:27
    one of those emotional things you know
    14:29
    everything’s so overwhelming you know
    14:31
    feels like you’re we’re isolated etc but
    14:34
    you’re in a position of strength so know
    14:35
    that and be encouraged by that and and
    14:38
    know that you know all of these old
    14:41
    concepts of success size scale longevity
    14:44
    intellectual property these are things
    14:46
    that we’ve been taught in our MBA
    14:48
    programs that we’ve learned in our
    14:49
    careers make us successful today that
    14:52
    just are not working anymore they’re
    14:54
    either irrelevant or becoming irrelevant
    14:57
    which again means that maybe growth
    14:59
    isn’t necessarily the goal may be profit
    15:03
    is the goal may be scalability is the
    15:05
    goal so you can fluctuate as your
    15:07
    industry fluctuates so these old
    15:09
    concepts of success aren’t working like
    15:11
    they used to there are new concepts of
    15:13
    success principles required to succeed
    15:16
    things like flexibility now trumping
    15:19
    efficiency what does that mean how can
    15:22
    you know coming from a business leader
    15:23
    what does it means to prioritize
    15:25
    anything over efficiency that that’s
    15:27
    almost you know heretic 'el connection
    15:30
    now beating craft in many creative
    15:33
    industry
    15:33
    that’s heretical you know so understand
    15:36
    there’s actually new principles required
    15:37
    to succeed in this very uncertain
    15:40
    high-risk economy that that allow us to
    15:43
    be resilient to grow resilient brands to
    15:46
    actually flourish in our size whether
    15:48
    we’re small
    15:49
    that means we’re nimble that means we
    15:51
    can innovate and we can you know we have
    15:53
    higher risk tolerances so you’re in a
    15:56
    position of strength focus on resiliency
    15:58
    I love it so tell me what the question
    16:00
    once you get a copy of brand versus wild
    16:02
    what do you recommend where they go well
    16:04
    you can find it anywhere books are sold
    16:05
    certainly you know go to Amazon pick up
    16:07
    a copy drop me a review if you want to
    16:10
    learn more you can go to Jonathan David
    16:11
    Lewis comm and you can learn more about
    16:14
    me and my company McKee wall work and
    16:16
    you know there’s a lot of info about the
    16:17
    book there as well
    16:18
    fantastic well John anything else you
    16:20
    are share with our audience before we
    16:21
    let go now I think we’ve covered quite a
    16:25
    bit of it I would just say focus on that
    16:26
    resiliency I love it
    16:28
    well again Jonathan I really appreciate
    16:30
    your time I appreciate your sharing with
    16:33
    us the importance of guitars being that
    16:34
    resilient especially as an entrepreneur
    16:36
    and small business owner resiliency is
    16:37
    obviously one of the most important
    16:39
    things that you can focus on so I
    16:41
    appreciate your time and look forward to
    16:42
    talking soon
    16:43
    thanks so much thanks for listening to
    16:46
    funnel hacker radio podcast if you’d
    16:47
    like to be notified anytime we release a
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“Expert Secrets Is The Map That Will Allow You To Turn Your Specialized Knowledge, Talents and Abilities Into A Business That Will Work For You! This Is One Of The Shortcuts of The New Rich” - Robert Kiyosaki